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mumukShuH- svAshrit nishchay aur parAshrit vyavahAr hai, to phir nishchay-vyavahArako barAbar shAstrame.n pUjya kaise kahA hai? jabaki vyavahAr parAshrit mArga hai aur nishchay svAshrit hai, to svAshrit to pUjya hai, tab parAshrit mArga vyavahArako bhI sAthame.n pUjya kahA hai, to kis apekShAse?

samAdhAnaH- pUjya hai. j~nAn, darshan, chAritra ratnatray pragaT hote hai.n, isaliye. sAdhakadashA hai, mokShakA mArga hai isaliye pUjanik kahaneme.n AtA hai. dravya to pUjanik hai parantu vyavahAr bhI muktike mArgame.n vyavahAr sAthame.n AtA hai.

AchAryadev kahate hai.n, ham kyA kare.n? bIchame.n A jAtA hai. isaliye vyavahAr AtA hai. parantu ratnatray pragaT hotA hai isaliye usako pUjanik kahaneme.n AtA hai. muktikA mArga hai. sAdhakadashA hai, muktikA a.nsh pragaT hotA hai isaliye. kevalaj~nAn bhI paryAy hai, .. kahaneme.n AtA hai. us apekShAse. ratnatray pUjanik hai.

a.ntarame.nse paryAy... apekShAse sab bAt AtI hai. koI apekShAse kahe ki vyavahAr pUjanik nahI.n hai, paryAy apekShAse pUjanik kahaneme.n AtA hai. kyo.nki ratnatray hai isaliye. koI apekShAse aisA kahe ki... sAdhakadashA hai isaliye pUjanaki hai, aisA bhI AtA hai. muniko bhI pUjanik hai. ratnatray pragaT huA hai isaliye. to bhI vyavahAr hey kahaneme.n AtA hai, to bhI sAthame.n A jAtA hai. shubhabhAv hai, bhed Ave to bhed par dR^iShTi mat kara. bhed par dR^iShTi mat kar, aisA kahaneme.n Aye. to bhI bIchame.n j~nAn, darshan, chAritrakA bhed to AtA hai. vah AtmAkI shuddha paryAy hai...

mumukShuH- ek jIvanase dvitIy jIvan dhAraN karanA, is prakriyAko sahaj shabdo.nme.n yAnI jain TarminolojI hai, jise kahe.n jain shabdAvali, usake bAhar ChoTeme.n ham log kais tarahase samajh aur samajhA sakate hai.n?

samAdhAnaH- usame.n to kyA hai? punarjanma hai to hai. anek jAtake janma letA hai dUsare-dUsare sthAn par, to punarjanma to hai. koI rAjAke ghar jAtA hai, koI ra.nkake ghar jAtA hai, koI jainame.n janmtA hai, koI kahA.N janmtA hai. ek janmame.nse dUsare janmame.n AtA hai to pUrvame.n jo pariNAm kiye hai.n, usakA phal hai. dUsare-dUsare janmame.n AtA

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hai to usakA kAraN to kuCh hai. aise anyAy nahI.n hotA, koI kisIke ghar, koI kisIke ghar jAtA hai. AtmA shAshvat hai. usake pariNAmake phalame.n koI rAjAke ghar, koI ra.nkake ghar janma letA hai.

mumukShuH- bahinashrI! yah to huA karmaphal siddhAnta. lekin isakI prakriyA kyA hai? prosesa.

samAdhAnaH- prakriyA kyA hai?

mumukShuH- yAnI yahA.Nse ek jIvan samApta huA aur dvitIy jIv prArambha huA, usake bIchakA jo antarAl hai, usame.n AtmA kin sthitio.nme.nse gujaratI hai?

samAdhAnaH- antarAlame.n to usakI gati hotI hai. jaisA usakA pariNAm hotA hai, usake anusAr gati hotI hai. usakI prakriyA kuCh dekhaneme.n nahI.n AtI.

mumukShuH- ek-do samayame.n hotA hai. ek-do samay, tIn samaya. meksimama. usame.n kyA prakriyA hogI? vahA.N pahu.Nchaneme.n utkR^iShTa tIn samay lagate hai.n.

samAdhAnaH- usame.n prakriyA ek samayame.n, do samayame.n vah pahu.Nch jAtA hai.

mumukShuH- jaise kahI.n jagah kyA rahatA hai ki nishchit a.ntarAl rahate hai.n, kuCh taijas sharIrakA bhI... jaise anya darshano.nme.n hai ki taijas sharIr lambe samay tak vidyamAn rahatA hai, sUkShma sharIr jo hai vah ekadam palAhit ho jAtA hai, aisA kuCh?

samAdhAnaH- aisA jainame.n nahI.n hai. ek samay, do samay, tIn samaya. koI sIdhI gatime.n jAtA hai, koI TeDhA jAtA hai to aisA konA hotA hai. parantu ek, do, tIn samayame.n pahu.Nch jAtA hai. usame.n antarAl nahI.n rahatA hai. usake bIchame.n kuCh antarAl nahI.n hai. ek, do, tIn samayame.n pahu.Nch jAtA hai.

mumukShuH- do-pA.Nch mahine tak ghumate hai.n, aisA kahate hai.n, aisA nahI.n hai. .. amerikAse Aye the, .... vah kahate hai.n ki, anya darshan to chAr-pA.Nch mahinA ghumate hai.n jIv, aisA jainame.n nahI.n hai. ek, do, tIn samayame.n kArmANasharIr lekar vahA.N pahu.Nch jAtA hai. audArik sharIr yahA.N rah jAtA hai.

samAdhAnaH- koI pahale hotA hai, koI bIchame.n hotA hai, koI tIsare bhAgame.n hotA hai. bAdame.n usakA phal AtA hai. aisA..

mumukShuH- tIn bhAg rahatA hai, tab.. mumukShuH- ek to yah siddhAnta huA aur ApakA vichAr visheSh is sambandhame.n jAnatA hU.N mai.n. jaisA tIsare bhAgame.n hotA hai, mai.n Apase jAnanA chAhatA hU.N. jain siddhAntame.n batAyA hai, lekin Apase..

samAdhAnaH- jain siddhAntame.n aisA hotA hai. karma prakR^iti koI dikhAI nahI.n detI.

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AtmAkI svAnubhUtikA anubhav hotA hai ki AtmAkA svabhAv hai, Ananda hai, AtmAkA bhedaj~nAn kyA hai? sharIr bhinna hai, vibhAv bhinna hai, vibhAv AtmAkA svabhAv nahI.n hai, AtmA bhinna hai, usakI svAnubhUti hotI hai, usakA bhedaj~nAn hotA hai. yah sab AtmAke hAthakI bAt hai. karma prakR^iti hai vah dikhAI nahI.n detI. vah to kevalaj~nAnIke j~nAname.n pratyakSha j~nAnIke j~nAname.n, avadhij~nAname.n, kevalaj~nAname.n dikhAI detI hai.

jisane aisA svAnubhUtikA mArga batAyA, kevalaj~nAnakA mArga batAyA, vah pratyakSha j~nAnI jo kahate hai.n, vah yathArtha hai. usame.n koI pheraphAr nahI.n hotA. aisA yathArtha hotA hai. jagatame.n pratyakSha j~nAnI hote hai.n, vItarAgI, jo svAnubhUti hotI hai, svAnubhUtime.n visheSh- visheSh lIn hote-hote munidashA (AtI hai). usame.n a.ntarmuhUrta-a.ntarmuhUrtame.n svAnubhUtime.n lIn hote hai.n. aisA hote-hote kevalaj~nAn pragaT hotA hai. kevalaj~nAn-pratyakSha j~nAn ek samayame.n lokAlok jAn letA hai. AtmAko jAnatA hai aur pudagal eva.n vishvakI samasta vastuo.nko, dravya-kShetra-kAl-bhAvako vah jAnate hai.n. jAnate hai.n, unake j~nAname.n jo AtA hai, vahI shAstrame.n AtA hai.

jo AtmA hai, usame.n jo vibhAv hai to koI karma to hai. karma nahI.n hai, aisA nahI.n hai. AtmAkA svabhAv to chaitanya hai, usame.n vibhAv (hotA hai), vah AtmAkA svabhAv nahI.n hai. rAg-dveSh to duHkharUp hai. duHkh AtmAkA svabhAv nahI.n hai. ataH karma hai. vah karma anek jAtike hote hai.n. j~nAnAvaraNIy, darshanAvaraNIy (Adi). j~nAnako bandha kare, darshanako (bandha kare), aise AyuShyakA bandha, aise anek jAtake karma hote hai.n. usame.n anek jAtakI ras, sthiti hotI hai. usame.n anek-anek prakAr hote hai.n. vah sab prakAr kaise hote hai.n, vah pratyakSha j~nAnIke j~nAname.n AtA hai.

samyagdR^iShTi aur muniko to svAnubhUti hotI hai. sabako vah pratyakSha dekhaneme.n Ave aisA nahI.n hotI. usakI svAnubhUti pratyakSha dekhaneme.n AtI hai. svAnubhUtikA vedan hotA hai. karma dekhaneme.n nahI.n Ate. karma to kevalaj~nAnI aur avadhij~nAnIko dikhAI dete hai.n. isaliye pratyakSha j~nAnIke j~nAname.n jo AyA vah yathArtha hai. amuk bAt yuktise, dalIlase siddha hotI hai. svAnubhUti, vibhAv, usakA karmabandha, paradravya hai. duHkharUp jo hai vah paradravya hai, vah duHkhakA nimitta hotA hai. isame.n j~nAnakI shakti.. mUl dravya jo hai usakA svabhAv kShay nahI.n hotA-ghAt nahI.n hotA, parantu usakI shakti aur paryAyo.nme.n pheraphAr hotA hai to karmabandha (hotA hai). j~nAn, darshan, chAritrako rokatA hai. aise AyuShya, vedanayI, gotra, nAm Adi anek prakArake karma hote hai.n, usame.n ek AyuShya bandha bhI hotA hai.

jo AyuShya kevalaj~nAnIke j~nAname.n AyA hai ki jIvanake tIsare bhAgame.n amuk-amuk

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bhAgo.nme.n hotA hai vah yathArtha hai. vah koI pratyakSha dekhaneme.n nahI.n AtA. Chadmastha usako pratyakSha nahI.n dekh sakatA. yuktise, vichArase (nakkI hotA hai). jo yukti, dalIlame.n AtA hai, svAnubhavame.n AtA hai vah kah sakate hai.n. bAkI sab pratyakSha j~nAnIke j~nAname.n jo AyA vah yathArtha hai.

mumukShuH- bahinashrI! ye jo kArmAN skandha rahate hai.n, jo janma-janmA.ntar ke liye Ayubandha, nAm, gotra, a.ntarAy bandha vagairah karate hai.n, kyA yah bandha karaneke bAdame.n haT jAte hai.n yA AtmAke sAth punarjanmake sAth TrAvel karate hai.n?

samAdhAnaH- punarjanmake sAthame.n vah Ate hai.n.

mumukShuH- kArmAN skandha?

samAdhAnaH- hA.N, kArmAN Ate hai.n. kArmAN sharIr sAthame.n jAtA hai. jo punarjanmame.n jAtA hai, usame.n kArmAN sharIr sAthame.n jAtA hai.

mumukShuH- aisA nahI.n hai, bahinashrI! ki jo hamAre yahA.Npar jaise shAtA vedanIy vagairahake kArmAN skandha hai.n, usIko puNya nAm diyA gayA ho aur yahI anya mat-matA.ntarame.n darshan shAstrame.n taijas sharIrake nAmase kahA gayA ho?

samAdhAnaH- kArmAN sharIr dUsarA hai, taijas sharIr dUsarA hai.

mumukShuH- kArmAN sharIrakA ek bhAg, 148me.nse ek taijas bandha hotA hai. sab taijas sharIr..

samAdhAnaH- kArmAN karmakA sharIra. aur taijas sharIr to dUsarA hotA hai. audArik, taijas, vraikiyak vah sharIr nahI.n. kArmANasharIr to karma,... vah pUrva bhavame.n jAtA hai.

mumukShuH- ek aur (prashna hai), bahinashrI! jaise Aj hamalog mAnate hai.n ki videhakShetrame.n tIrtha.nkar bhagavAn vidyamAn hai.n. to Aj videhakShetrame.n tIrtha.nkar bhagavAnakI vidyamAnatAko lekarake ek sAdhAraN shabdo.nme.n kaise kahA jA sakatA hai ki vahA.NkI bhAShA, vahA.NkI bhAvanA, vahA.Nke vichAr, vahA.Nke rahaneke taur-tarIke vagairahake bAreme.n kahI.n Apako kuCh anveShaName.n milA ho, aisA Apake anubhavame.n AyA ho, yA Apane paDhakar usapar adhik manan karake aur kuCh nishchit dhAraNA banAyI ho ki videhakShetrame.n vartamAname.n is prakArakI sthiti chal rahI hai.

samAdhAnaH- videhakShetrame.n bhagavAn sAkShAt virAjate hai.n, unakI divyadhvani ChUTatI hai, samavasaraName.n bhagavAn virAjate hai.n. vItarAg ho gaye hai.n to bhI vANI ChUTatI hai. videhakShetrame.n ek dharma chalatA hai, dUsarA dharma nahI.n hai. bhagavAn jo dharma kahate hai.n, vah ek hI dharma chalatA hai. is pa.nchamakAlame.n dUsare, dUsare, dUsare dharma hai.n, aise dharma nahI.n hai. ek dharma-jain dharma chalatA hai, dUsarA koI dharma nahI.n chalatA hai.

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mumukShuH- ek bAt hai, chUkI Ap aur mai.n, Ap shraddhAnI hai, mai.n ApakI bAtame.n shraddhAn karatA hU.N, lekin anya AdamI ise kyo.n mAn le? kaise mAn le? usako manavAnekA koI AdhAr?

samAdhAnaH- vah mAne yA na mAne, sabakI yogyatA. jisakI jij~nAsA hove vah mAn sakatA hai, jisakI yogyatA nahI.n hove (vah nahI.n mAnatA). jisako AtmAkA kalyAN karanA ho, vah vichAr karake mAn le. aur nahI.n mAne to usakI yogyatA. nahI.n mAne to kyA kare? apane AtmAkA kalyAN karanA hai, dUsarA mAne to mAno, nahI.n mAne to nahI.n mAno.

mumukShuH- ek aur sha.nkA hai, bahinashrI! Aj jo muni para.nparA Aj jaisI bhI chal rahI hai aur jaisI muni para.nparA shAstro.nke anurUp hai, is dono.nke jo a.ntar hai, un a.ntarakI jo dUriyA.N hai.n, vah kabhI miTegI? yA jaisA Aj yah samAnA.ntar munirUp chal rahA hai aur dUsarA jo samayasArame.n muniyo.nke guN vagairahakA vivechan kiyA gayA hai, iname.n ye dUriyA.N banI hI rahegI aur ham log bhaTakate rahe.nge? ki samayasArame.n jo praNIt munisvarUp hai, vaise muni DhU.NDhate rahe, hame.n nahI.n mile aur vah muni log jo Aj hai, vah kahate hai.n ki ham jaise hai.n vaise hI samayasArake anurUp hai aur ham isake bIch hI bIch Dolate rahee.nge, isakA bhI koI rastA lagegA ki nahI.n lagegA?

samAdhAnaH- apane AtmAkA kalyAN kar lenA. vah kyA hogA, yah to pa.nchamakAl hai. ... pahale thA, ab to pa.nchamakAlame.n huA hai. usame.n pheraphAr-pheraphAr chalatA rahatA hai. koI bhAvali.ngI muni, aisA kAl A jAtA hai to bhAvali.ngI bhI ho jAtA hai, koI aisA kAl AtA hai to mAtra kriyAme.n dharma mAnate hai.n, aisA bhI ho jAtA hai. aisA kAl AyA to...

gurudev jaise yahA.N hue saurAShShTrame.n, ki jinho.nne AtmAkI svAnubhUtikA mArga batAyA. aisA bhI kAl A gayA. sachchA dharma batAyA. gurudev virAjate the, unho.nne sachchA AtmAkA mArga batAyA, aisA bhI (kAl) A gayA. yah to pa.nchamakAl hai to aise pheraphAr-pheraphAr chalate hI rahate hai.n.

mumukShuH- to sambhAvanA nahI.n hai? jis prakArase AchArya kundakundadevane samayasArame.n jis prakArase muniyo.nkA varNan kiyA hai, aise munidharmakI sambhAvanA Ap is pa.nchamakAlame.n Ap nahI.n mAnatI hai, aisA?

samAdhAnaH- kabhI koI aisA kAl A jAy to ho bhI sakate hai.n. aisA kAl Aye to ho bhI jAya. vaise to pa.nchamakAlake Akhirame.n muni, arjikA, shrAvak, shrAvikA hote hai.n. achChA kAl hove, A jAy to ho bhI sakate hai.n. nahI.n hove aisA kahA.N

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hai? koI bIch-bIchame.n ho bhI jAya.

mumukShuH- ek aur prashna hai, bahinashrI! punarjanmake sambandhame.n kisI vyaktivisheShakI jAnakArI yA ekadam apaneAp j~nAn ho jAnA, isake liye koI khAs dhyAn, chi.ntavan vagairah Avashyak hai yA apaneAp ho jAtA hai?

samAdhAnaH- punarjanmakA kyA karanA? apane AtmAko pahachAn lenA. AtmA j~nAnasvarUp j~nAyak chaitanya svarUp mai.n hI hU.N. aur sharIr mai.n nahI.n hU.N, paradravya hai. AtmA chaitanyatattva j~nAnasvarUp hai, jaD kuCh jAnatA nahI.n hai. mai.n jAnanevAlA hU.N. rAg-dveSh, sa.nkalpa-vikalpa merA svarUp nahI.n hai. mai.n bhagavAn jaisA hU.N. aisA bhedaj~nAn karake AtmAkA svarUp pahachAno. bAkI punarjanmakA j~nAn hove, yA na hove, aisA nahI.n hai ki usase bhavakA abhAv ho sakatA hai.

bhavakA abhAv to AtmAko pahachAnanese hotA hai. isaliye AtmAko pIChAno, AtmAkI jAtiko pahachAno. AtmA anAdiananta shAshvat hai usako pIChAno. aisA gurudev kahate hai.n, aisA shAstrame.n AtA hai, AtmAko pIChAno. j~nAyak AtmAko.

mumukShuH- jain sthAnakake bAreme.n, bahinashrI! yah dhyAn jo hai, vah kis prakriyAse prArambha kiyA jAve? AtmAme.n gaharA UtaranekI bAt to Ap pharamAte hai.n, magar usakI a, ba, ka, kha jo bArakhaDI, varNamAlA hai, vah kyA hai? kahA.Nse shurU kare?

samAdhAnaH- pahale sachchA j~nAn hotA hai, bAdame.n sachchA dhyAn hotA hai. sachchA j~nAn, AtmAko jAne ki merA svabhAv kyA hai? merA svabhAv kyA? merA astitva kyA? merA dravya-guN-paryAy kyA hai? sabako jAne bAdame.n usame.n ekAgra honA. to dhyAn hotA hai. jAne binA ekAgra kis chIjame.n hogA? jAnatA nahI.n hai ki mai.n kaun chaitanya hU.N aur dhyAn kahA.N karegA? vikalpakA dhyAn hogA. mai.n chaitanya hU.N, nirvikalpa tattva hU.N, aisA bhItarame.nse j~nAn (kare).

jaise bhagavAnakA AtmA hai, vaisA mai.n hU.N. aise chaitanya svabhAvako pahachAnese usame.n ekAgra honese, bAra.nbAr ekAgra hove, bAra.nbAr ekAgra hove. yah vikalpa mai.n nahI.n hU.N, mai.n chaitanya hU.N, bAra.nbAr ekAgra hove to dhyAn hotA hai. parantu j~nAn karanese dhyAn hotA hai. mUl prayojanabhUt j~nAn to honA chAhiye. jyAdA shAstrakA j~nAn hove aisA nahI.n, parantu prayojanabhUt tattvako to jAnanA chAhiye.

jaise shivabhUti muni kuCh jAnate nahI.n the. lekin mai.n bhinna aur yah bhinna hai. vah aurat dAl aur ChilakA bhinna karatI thI ki yah ChilakA bhinna hai, dAl bhinna hai. aise mai.n chaitanya bhinna hU.N, aisA thoDA bhI j~nAn bhItarame.nse honA chAhiye. bAdame.n sachchA dhyAn ho sakatA hai.

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mumukShuH- vyaktigat jIvanake bAreeme.n digambar shAstro.nme.n kam milatA hai aur anya shAstro.nme.n jo milatA hai, usako paDhanese mAthA ekadam garam ho jAtA hai. jaise ki kalpasUtrame.n hai yA bhagavatI sUtrame.n hai, jo kuCh mahAvIrake jIvanake bAreme.n milatA hai, kyo.nki bahinashrI use khUb paDhA hai. to usako paDhanese mAthe nase.n jo hai.n jhanajhanA jAtI hai ki yadi agar yah mahAvIr hai to vAstavik mahAvIr koI aur hogA, yah sab bhrAntiyA.N...

samAdhAnaH- .. kuCh nahI.n hai. yathArtha hove, bas itanA... munidashAme.n .. jUThA grahaN nahI.n karanA. thoDA hove to thoDA, parantu yathArtha grahaN karanA. shvetAmbar, sthAnakavAsI the. gurudev saurAShTrame.n aise pragaT hue ki unase sachchA dharma pragaT huA.

mumukShuH- aisA lagatA hai ki lokAchAr, jinadatta sUrI...

samAdhAnaH- yathArtha mArga (grahaN karanA). koI sampradAy, vADA kisIko grahaN nahI.n karake, sachchA dharma pragaT kiyA. bahut takalIph huyI to bhI sachchA mArga pragaT kiyA.

mumukShuH- AshIrvAdasvarUpame.n bahut prApta kiyA. bahinashrI! Aj ApakA svAsthya achChA nahI.n hote hue bhI Apane hame.n udabodhan diyA, ham par baDI kR^ipA karI. hamAre liye to.. gurudevako bhI hamane dekhA nahI.n hai, to gurudevakI paramparAko dekhakar hI samajh rahe hai.n ki Aj gurudevake charaNo.nme.n A gaye hai.n.

samAdhAnaH- (gurudev) to koI aur hI the. sonagaDhame.n to unakI vANI... nidhi pAmIne jan koI nij vatane rahI phaL bhogave, tem j~nAnI parajan sa.ng ChoDI, j~nAn nidhine bhogave. gurudevake pAs itanI vANI sunane milI, gurudevane sab diyA. gurudevane mArga batAyA, itane shAstra samajhAye. jo denA thA vah sab gurudevane diyA. ab andar AtmAkA karane jaisA hai. ekAntame.n rahakar aur apanA svAdhyAy karake AtmAkA kar lene jaisA hai. gurudev hI hai aur gurudevane is pa.nchamakAlame.n sab diyA hai.

shAstrame.n to aisA AtA hai, nidhi pAmIne jan koI nij vatanamA.n rahe. aisA hai, lekin nidhi arthAt a.ntarakI nidhi. j~nAnIjan parajan sa.ng ChoDI, j~nAnanidhi bhogave arthAt chaitanyanidhiko bhogatA hai. apane aise shubhabhAvame.n artha lete the. gurudevake pAs.. a.ntaramakA pragaT ho vah to alag hI bAt hai. artha to usame.n hai, shAstrakA artha vah hai. j~nAnanidhiko tU ekAntame.n bhoga. terI j~nAnanidhikI sAdhanA kar, chaitanyakI. parantu gurudevase jo milA hai, baraso.n tak sAnnidhyame.n (rahakar), use tU ab andar (UtAr).